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hunter
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Posted: Wed Aug 27th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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I have been buying Classicbike since the very first edition. I also used to buy other mags that I have ceased to buy as they no longer covered the subject of classic biking in the manner I prefer. I have made no bones about the fact that I am no lover of Japanese machines, although I give a nod to the engineering that goes into their production and to the styling of a very few. A classic bike to me dos'nt have to be British, it can come from anywhere in the world, including Japan. What it does have to have is a pedigree, something becomes a "Classic" because it was seen in its day to hold the qualities that the buying public sort after. Precious few "Bitsa's" fall into the classic category, having said that a nicely turned out Triton, Tribsa, Norvin or Velton that is both functional and stylish, can be said to be a classic special. What in my opinion would not be classed as classic, special or otherwise, is the miss-matching of a collection of differing motorcycle makes just for the sake of it.
I continue to buy "Classicbike" because, as yet it has'nt gone the route of say "Classic Mechanics" that has an anything go's approach to its content, (in my opinion). I, and I think I speak for many readers, like to see and read about the effort taken to rebuild a once proud, and in some cases not so proud, but never the less, worthy, machine from a bygone era. I'm not interested in chopping,sawing,welding lumps of one bike onto another,(although I would agree,like modern art,its in the eye of the beholder) but not in the pages of Classicbike please.
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Velton
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 12:45 am |
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Couldn't agree more, Hunter.
There's a world of difference between a "special" and a "Bitsa."
The expense doesn't come into it, either, it's about the quality of the workmanship and the final article/ outcome.
Nothing wrong with a "Bitsa" as a bike of course but is it ever going to be a "Classic?"
Not by any meaningful definition.
Personally, I share your views about many Japanese machines* as well. though I understand why they are featured in the magazine. Let's hope there is always a good mix of nationalities, as in the latest edition?
* very few being "Classic."
Last edited on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 12:46 am by Velton
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Just being old doesn't make it a "Classic."
Aaaah.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 09:31 am |
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I think 'specials' can be made from just about anything. Whether they are any good or not depends on whether they look nice and are good to ride. I don't particularly care where the bits come from and what mix of components has been used (Japanese, British, Italian, German or so on), as long as the end result is aesthetic and functional. Obviously, I'd be a little biased negatively if a rare or simply a nice bike had been cut up to build the special. The sight of a Morini Kanguro with its neat little v-twin replaced with a boring boring boring XS400 lump on fleabay made me realise that.
I like Italian bikes best but I've had Japanese and British ones as well.
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starfirebird
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 10:13 am |
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| I think you can have a classic "special" - I seem to remember some rather lovely examples in Classic Bike a few months ago, a bobbed Panther perhaps and a couple of other tasteful specials. I also seem to remember there being a good response to them being included in the magazine.
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Velton
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 11:55 am |
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Yes, sfb. I remember that Panther.
Nice bike BUT I don't think it was a "special" in the sense that (?Hunter and?) I mean it.
I would say that was a tastefully customised bike but not a "special" as the main components came from one factory (in Cleckheaton) and are not a mixture of more than one manufacturer's bits.
Your 3TA / B 25 TriBSA would be a "special" by my definition.
____________________
Just being old doesn't make it a "Classic."
Aaaah.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
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hunter
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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Velton wrote:
Your 3TA / B 25 TriBSA would be a "special" by my definition.
I agree, and one that the factory employed itself in latter years.
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running out of road is like running out of beer...they both make you shout ....OHHH SHooT!
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Velton
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 06:03 pm |
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Yes, so that raises the question of whether factory built ISDT bikes are "specials" or not, maybe. 
I doubt that anyone would deny their (iconic?) "classic" status.
Going back to your original post, the not-so-proud / humble bikes can be just as enthralling as the prestige models - it depends on so many variables.
Probably the best bit of motor-cycle writing I've ever read was in the old "Motorcycle Sport" article called "The story of Two Tails" a 1930-something Francis Barnett 250.
Pretty humble stuff, but the writer told his story so well that it was brilliant!!!
Whereas a Goldie (or other proud classic) with a list of stove enamelling by Fred Bloggs, paint by Joe Smith , engine rebuilt by Dave Jones etc. is pretty tedious reading (for me) regardless of the beauty of the actual bike.
There have been some really interesting, low budget jobs that I've seen over the years.
(Apologies for going off at a bit of a tangent about articles in magazines etc. whereas your original comments were more about the actual bikes themselves, maybe?)
Last edited on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 12:46 am by Velton
____________________
Just being old doesn't make it a "Classic."
Aaaah.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
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hunter
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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| Yes, its a bit like the guys who trailer their bikes everywhere. If you've farmed out most of the work, or worse still had a professional restorer do the job, then I'm not so interested as I would be if all the pitfalls and their solutions are mentioned. As a restorer myself, and a builder of specials, I get more from reading those tales than as you say; paint by so and so etc. One of the best articles was of a group of college students who dredged a Velo up from the river and rebuilt it as a college project to near concours.
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 10:24 pm |
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Velton wrote: Yes, so that raises the question of whether factory built ISDT bikes are "specials" or not, maybe.
I doubt that anyone would deny their (iconic?) "classic" status.
Going back to your original post, the not-so-proud / humble bikes can be just as enthralling as the prestige models - it depends on so many variables.
Probably the best bit of motor-cycle writing I've ever read was in the old "Motorcycle Sport" article called "The story of Two Tails" a 1930-something Francis Barnett 250.
Pretty humble stuff, but the write told his story so well that it was brilliant!!!
Whereas a Goldie (or other proud classic) with a list of stove enamelling by Fred Bloggs, paint by Joe Smith , engine rebuilt by Dave Jones etc. is pretty tedious reading (for me) regardless of the beauty of the actual bike.
There have been some really interesting, low budget jobs that I've seen over the years.
(Apologies for going off at a bit of a tangent about articles in magazines etc. whereas your original comments were more about the actual bikes themselves, maybe?)
A couple of mates of mine are keen trials riders. They have modern bikes but one also used to ride pre 65 on a Tigercub. Now his bike was NOTHING like the Tigercub I used to own as it had a host of new bits and improvements that'd been developed over the years. So was it a classic? Hmmm. Remember that Ariel two stroke in CB a while back that was raced at the TT? It looked pretty good didn't it. But was it a classic, what with its Suzuki pistons and all?
Answers on a postcard...
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 10:25 pm |
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hunter wrote: Yes, its a bit like the guys who trailer their bikes everywhere. If you've farmed out most of the work, or worse still had a professional restorer do the job, then I'm not so interested as I would be if all the pitfalls and their solutions are mentioned. As a restorer myself, and a builder of specials, I get more from reading those tales than as you say; paint by so and so etc. One of the best articles was of a group of college students who dredged a Velo up from the river and rebuilt it as a college project to near concours.
Rick's Triton restoration was one of the most interesting I've read so far.
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starfirebird
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Posted: Thu Aug 28th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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hunter wrote: Yes, its a bit like the guys who trailer their bikes everywhere. If you've farmed out most of the work, or worse still had a professional restorer do the job, then I'm not so interested as I would be if all the pitfalls and their solutions are mentioned. As a restorer myself, and a builder of specials, I get more from reading those tales than as you say; paint by so and so etc. One of the best articles was of a group of college students who dredged a Velo up from the river and rebuilt it as a college project to near concours.
As a total amateur, I like reading the same articles as you because I hope I can learn from them. I like reading about how people have got round problems and perhaps had to improvise. I also enjoy articles that go into the history of the bike and its previous owners - I'd like to find out who put the triumph engine in my Starfire and why they wanted to do it, and why none of the previous owners kept it for long (perhaps they were all scared of sorting out the leaks from the push rod tubes ).
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hunter
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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ScotDuke wrote:
A couple of mates of mine are keen trials riders. They have modern bikes but one also used to ride pre 65 on a Tigercub. Now his bike was NOTHING like the Tigercub I used to own as it had a host of new bits and improvements that'd been developed over the years. So was it a classic? Hmmm. Remember that Ariel two stroke in CB a while back that was raced at the TT? It looked pretty good didn't it. But was it a classic, what with its Suzuki pistons and all?
Answers on a postcard...
As an Ariel enthusiast I loved the new 2 smoke range when it came out, unfortuately the majority of the buying public did'nt, hence Ariels demise. That bike was a worthy effort, but not a classic. However, an original fully fitted Leader or Arrow maybe Now.IMO
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running out of road is like running out of beer...they both make you shout ....OHHH SHooT!
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Velton
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Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 12:41 am |
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250 Ariel Arrow was my first road bike. Definitely a "Classic" for me!
I loved it. Amazing roadholding/ handling.
Got me out of trouble so many times - but sometimes gravity prevailed!
They are now one of the classic biking bargains - cheaper than a Bantam!
Leaders never did it for me, to be honest.
Although there is a Velo Vogue on Ebay right now that is also going cheap.
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Just being old doesn't make it a "Classic."
Aaaah.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
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hunter
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 07:56 pm |
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Velton wrote: 250 Ariel Arrow was my first road bike. Definitely a "Classic" for me!
I loved it. Amazing roadholding/ handling.
Got me out of trouble so many times - but sometimes gravity prevailed!
They are now one of the classic biking bargains - cheaper than a Bantam!
Leaders never did it for me, to be honest.
Although there is a Velo Vogue on Ebay right now that is also going cheap.
The Vogue was too angular for me, it lacked the rounded lines of the Leader,the engine was nice being 4 stroke, but the Ariel 2 stroke engine was a masterpiece of design. But as you rightly put it, the Arrow won hands down on appearance.
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running out of road is like running out of beer...they both make you shout ....OHHH SHooT!
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Velton
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 09:37 pm |
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| That Ariel prototype with twin headlamps (like the Vogue) but a large flat 4 stroke engine (like a K-series BMW) would definitely have qualified as a "Classic" though - rather than just an interesting, obscure footnote in the terminal decline of the British bike industry.
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Just being old doesn't make it a "Classic."
Aaaah.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 12:04 pm |
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Hello all; back from my travels.
Just would like to say that in my opinion the problem is in the word CLassic because in itself it means nothing. It is presumed to mean something of particular historical significance, which can be either subjective - ie personal historical significance (my first bike/the bike I rode for years/the bike I alway wanted), or objective - the bikes that established an undeniable place in motorcycel history - cammy Nortons and Velos, Goldies, Vincents, 750-4, Gilera 4, Z1, LC etc. Trouble is, the subjective definition is useless. That's where all the arguments start, because it is by definition a matter of taste. The objective is complicated by the fact that by its definition these are universally acclaimed bikes - well, except by those that like to create an impresion by slagging them - and consequently they are too expensive for the average punter. So average punter avoids the objective and reverts to the subjective.
Add into that mix the fact that the other way to define classic is " A classic example of..." and pretty much everything fits that bill. The Voskod 175 is a classic example of Eatern European austerity, the dreary XS250 I passed my test on was a Classic example of a ride to work/ learner 80s 4 stroke 250 twin - but then so was the 250N, GSX250 and the Z250.
Tritons and other specials are classic examples of what fashions owners follow and are as significant to the history of motorcycle culture as any standard bike. Can't think of an example off hand, but there have been bikes where the first thing any owner did was to junk the standard xxxx and replace it with a superior aftermarket part. I suppose seventies Jap rear shocks are an example. Should restorations reflect reality by maintaining these mods or deceive future audiences by returning everything to showroom spec? I for one would be sorry to see all the ingenious specials ever built returned to the standard spec bikes from which they originated. Paul Smart had Seeley(?) make a frame for his Kawasaki triple racer, big K hit the roof and made him use their rubbish chassis but that Seeley would be as classic as the stock Kawasaki, surely. Of course there is a line to be drawn, nobody likes cut and shut bodge ups but in customisation where that line goes is again purely subjective. Personally I don't like choppers or anything where style comes ahead of performance. That's why a while back I picke up on the bobber/chopper thing. To me a 'bobber' was a standard bike stripped of exces weight for performance, which is fine by me bike fuction The trend in America seems to be for kids to buy sixties Brits and hot rod them. I don't like the idea of stuff getting chopped about but on the other hand, I do like the idea of young guys getting into British bikes. If a few bikes get hacked about to feed that enthusiasm then surely that is better than the alternative, which is that all this stuff gets weighed in for scrap in twenty years because there is no next generation interested enough to take them on.
R
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farwest
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Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 07:39 am |
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The whole "classic" thing is interesting. One of my hobbies is collecting and restoring cameras...film cameras, obviously. In that world, "classic" cameras tend to be German or Japanese (note that Japanese camera manufacturers tended to follow German practise, just as their bike makers did).
There are a few American and British classic cameras, but they tend to be rare and expensive. Most affordable "classic" cameras come from the big 2.
There is even a book, large and fat, called "McKeown's Price Guide to Antique and Collectible Cameras" which illustrates tens of thousands of cameras, and gives prices based on tracked sales and auctions. Note that it avoids the word "classic"...
Last edited on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 07:41 am by farwest
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Pict
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Posted: Wed Sep 10th, 2008 11:18 pm |
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ScotDuke wrote: Remember that Ariel two stroke in CB a while back that was raced at the TT? It looked pretty good didn't it. But was it a classic, what with its Suzuki pistons and all?
Answers on a postcard...
That article made me go out and buy an Arrow (see pic on In the shed > Technical advice > Cleaning up and painting (2-stroke) barrels thread)
It will be getting Honda con rods and Suzuki pistons, I am fitting CB160 TLS front hub and GT380 rear hub in 18" rims. Definitely NOT a Classic, but can't wait to get it going.......
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Duncan F.
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 09:41 pm |
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I fully agree with everything that's been written before about "Classic" bikes. But I have to say, the present advice about how to buy a Hinckley Bonneville (yuk, puke, spew, where can I get a cheap skip from?) or anything else modern (with an electric foot for example) that suggests the purchase of anything like a 2 stroke Jap ( I can make it to 3 or 4 strokes), or something which has a "potential restorabilty" failure rate based on the "unavailability of indicator switches so it can get through an MOT" type bike" (my words), turns me away from the mag.
If "Classic Bike" magazine is now going to follow the same lines as a number of other magazines have done, then I'll find another rag to read.
Even the vaunted technical feature "How to sort out your magneto" article, didn't give any proper information. I could start, but in view of the fact I'm learing (properly) myself, mostly through trial and error (Bearings don't just fall out!!!) and am probably not the best placed person to describe how to do it without resorting to the advetisers in the mag after it all goes wrong (yet), I'll not go on. I may write a proper article on how to sort your own mag out in the future, but I don't think any publication will print anything which may mean shortcutting their advertisers. It'd be a bit like the tax man telling you how not to pay tax, and meaning it!
I ceased my subscription a couple of years ago. Since then, I've bought only the issues which have interested me (sadly, the current issue of CB has suggested that I need not bother with a "flick through" in the newsagents for a while). The same applies to most of the other "Classic" bike mags available.
One or two bike clubs have the same thoughts, such as the 59 club, who have a "Classic Section". Also, the ACE cafe, which is run and owned by Mark Wlsmore (ex mounted policeman ((Once a Plod, always a Plod)), who knows there is a "cash in" factor around, realises that there's a few bods around, who like real proper bikes. Although, I have to point out, he also has evenings for ""HARLEY DAVIDSON"" cough cough, splutter splutter, far too much leather "I'm a Bank "Menage a trois", sorry, Manager, but I've always been a Biker (even when I was a Soul Boy)" evenings).
Anyway, I could go on a lot more (if you ask), but won't at the moment. I've only just got back from Netley Marsh, and the wife needs me!!
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 09:43 pm |
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farwest wrote: The whole "classic" thing is interesting. One of my hobbies is collecting and restoring cameras...film cameras, obviously. In that world, "classic" cameras tend to be German or Japanese (note that Japanese camera manufacturers tended to follow German practise, just as their bike makers did).
There are a few American and British classic cameras, but they tend to be rare and expensive. Most affordable "classic" cameras come from the big 2.
There is even a book, large and fat, called "McKeown's Price Guide to Antique and Collectible Cameras" which illustrates tens of thousands of cameras, and gives prices based on tracked sales and auctions. Note that it avoids the word "classic"...
I collect cameras too. I've got an early Polaroid Land camera - fantastic build quality - except for the lens and shutter.
I've a few old Kodaks, a Nikkormat FT2, a Minolta Autocord, that sort of thing.
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