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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:14 am |
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hmm, at what point did i start preaching, I enjoy riding Italian sports bikes as much as the quasar, its not that FF is better, its just different..
I can imagine Malcolm Newell faced all these arguements when he unveiled the first Quasar, but he pressed on, and the world is a richer place due to people like him.
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:29 am |
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I was not referring to your good self, but another personage with a vary single track mind who appears to be the marketing director of a feet forward manufacturer. You sir, appear to be an open minded sort of person whose opinions are valued.
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 06:52 am |
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ah but Pauls views are also valid due to his wide experience.
If he is happy to reveal his name I suggest you google him, and read some of his articles.
To be fair, FFs arent for everyone, but niether are harleys, trail bikes, japanese cruisers (shudder,,) or old Moto Guzzis.
variety makes the world a more interesting place.
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:16 am |
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QuasarNZ wrote: ah but Pauls views are also valid due to his wide experience.
If he is happy to reveal his name I suggest you google him, and read some of his articles.
To be fair, FFs arent for everyone, but niether are harleys, trail bikes, japanese cruisers (shudder,,) or old Moto Guzzis.
variety makes the world a more interesting place.
Deffo shuddering inducing things, Since I got my Triumph, I'm totally put off jap sports bikes, I have ridden various japs over the last couple of years and some Buells. I like short wheel base naked bikes, Straight line speed is irrelevant, but cornering speed and effort required is important. The triumph has what I can only describe as neutral handling, it is so light and the engine is perfectly matched. I have nothing against old Moto Guzzis or trial bikes though, just not really my thing.
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fastfranky
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| Location: | The Hot Sunny Part Of, France |
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 07:27 am |
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Velton wrote: "an acknowledged expert of FF bikes"
Oh, really? And we were supposed to deduce this from what? That he knows the French for "feet forward" ? No evidence of anything much on his profile.
If PD is a genuine expert then he will get recognition - eventually. Accusing those who disagree of talking bo**ocks is not the usual opening gambit of most experts in my limited experience. More often used by opinionated ****wits.
Not understanding that motor-bikes have two wheels is not especially impressive either. Why mention 4 wheelers on here as evidence of FF motor- bikes?
"Classic bikers" tend to be a conservative lot and having someone stride in with that attitude (especially about such weird contraptions) is not going to bring out the "Welcome in, mate" attitude.
We all have our prejudices/ preferences etc. and getting stroppy with people is generally not the best way to convice them to think about your ideas, i.m.h.o. However, CB Forum is usually quite a tolerant place and there is room for most people who want to co-exist.
And if FF bikes bring more people over to chat about the bike then that's yet another reason for me never to even think about getting one!
I love this thread, I'm interested in anything motorised, and like to judge for myself on what is good and what is crap, but I don't pass judgement until I've tried something. Bikers really are a conservative bunch, it's nice to have a more open mind sometimes. 
Last edited on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 07:22 am by fastfranky
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Pooh
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| Location: | Daventry, United Kingdom |
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 09:41 am |
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Hooli wrote: piedevant wrote: The 600+ mph 3 wheeler which held the outright land speed record for a decade or two was FF. As indeed are all the 4 wheelers, from Thrust SSC down!
PNB count the wheels, those are CARS. a motorbicycle has TWO wheels, thats what the 'bi' means.
now do us all a favour & bugger to spout your bulls***e elsewhere theres a good retard.
That was Very rude of you....Not worthy and showed a lack of common politeness....Consider yourself Bollocked
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Pooh
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 09:43 am |
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Anyway....ahem sorry for my friend he's from Essex
Can you source me a hub centre set up Piedevant???????????
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QuasarNZ
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| Joined: | Wed Jul 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | New Zealand |
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 09:47 am |
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| by god I have to come in here more often to see fastfrankys moving pic.....
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piedevant
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| Location: | London, United Kingdom |
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 10:03 am |
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Velton wrote:
"Not understanding that motor-bikes have two wheels is not especially impressive either. Why mention 4 wheelers on here as evidence of FF motor- bikes?"
You and 'the village eejit' both missed the point. The point was simply that you get the most aerodynamic shape with an FF riding position and it doesn't prevent you from seeing where you're going! The reference to 3 and 4 wheeled record breakers merely added weight to that point.
Talking of which, this is another aerodynamic FF, supposed to be good for 350mph and also to be sold as a road vehicle. I don't doubt the former, given its turbocharged Hyabusa engine, but I'm very sceptical about the latter:
http://www.acabion.com
I think it would be great at Bonneville, but not very practical on the road.
In fact, I think it would be unusable on the road as currently configured.
PNB
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piedevant
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 10:10 am |
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Pooh wrote:
Can you source me a hub centre set up Piedevant???????????
Almost certainly. I'm pretty sure that Mark Crowson has a spare
Creasey-Tait Mk2 HCS system. You can contact him via his Quasar website:
http://www.quasarworld.com
This system is an improved version of the system used on the 5 Creasey Voyager 'preproduction' machines and provides about double the lock of a Difazio.
PNB
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piedevant
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 10:24 am |
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jessplop84 wrote:
"But with my feet up front, either I'm bottling it due to the unusual position, or it really doesn't want to go there".
A combination of both, I suspect. Trying to surmise what an FF is like by riding a Harley with highway pegs is about as relevant as doing the same with a traditional chopper.
"I have always used my weight on the pegs as part of the "chucking about" function, and this doesn't work at all well with the highway pegs. So I am assuming that the FF machines don't rely very much on input to the pegs for their cornering."
This is a false assumption. FWIW I found the secret to controlling the Voyager, with its alien 'go kart' handlebars, was by consciously using my feet to steer it. Having said that, the key to riding FFs in general, in my experience, is conscious counter-steering.
PNB
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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piedevant wrote: ScotDuke said:
"The Quasar was supposed to handle really well, but its looks haven't stood the test of time. I'd be curious to see what a modern version would look like."
"As for the Bonneville speed bikes being feet forward designs, I don't see how this could be. They are so streamlined the rider generally lies near flat. With a feet forward design they'd be looking up at the sky. The Bonneville speed bikes I've seen in displays and stuff have had the rider lying down, but head first."
An FF design for a Bonneville speed bike would require a lengthy solution to steering with a complex linkage - a headfirst design doesn't. I remember seeing a Bonneville bike in a display (can't remember what it was) and it was most definitely a head first design. I'm curious why you think and FF layout would give better aerodynamic properties than a headfirst layout.
The Burgmann's looks are a matter of taste incidentally but I think it looks like a larger version of one of those ugly and garish training shoes made in Vietnam by underpaid and overworked sweatshop employees and purchased predominantly by overweight couch potatoes who seem to believe that watching sports on TV will make them fitter. I've no idea what it's like to ride and have no interest to find out. I'd happily go for a spin on a Quasar given half a chance.
Some of those Genesis designs are interesting but I wonder how they'd perform in a sidewind. The buffeting that occurs when passing high-sided HGVs on the motorway can be pretty severe and I expect any enclosed FF design would bet at a disadvantage unless the designer was able to invest in some very expensive aerodynamic research to develop an effective solution.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:15 pm by ScotDuke
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piedevant
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:45 pm |
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ScotDuke originally wrote:
"As for the Bonneville speed bikes being feet forward designs, I don't see how this could be. They are so streamlined the rider generally lies near flat. With a feet forward design they'd be looking up at the sky. The Bonneville speed bikes I've seen in displays and stuff have had the rider lying down, but head first."
Then he added:
"An FF design for a Bonneville speed bike would require a lengthy solution to steering with a complex linkage - a headfirst design doesn't. "
OK, I'll try not to be rude. The above shows a breathtaking ignorance of Bonneville streamliners. I've just been updating myself on recent record-breakers and it confirmed what I said in the first place. ALL the outright TWO WHEEL record breakers of the last 50 years have been Feet First.
This article from October 2006 is a great story of the 3-way battle for supremacy which took place at Bonneville that year. Page 3 gives an eloquent explanation WITH PICTURES of what it's like to sit in and steer a Streamlined FF and actually echoes what I said earlier about the importance of countersteering.
When it comes to making a motorcycle go 350 mph, and keeping it upright on the salt, making a suitable steering linkage is a very minor problem in the overall scheme of things!
See here:
Okhttp://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3811&Page=3
PNB
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TheMightyGusset
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 01:43 pm |
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QuasarNZ wrote: ah but Pauls views are also valid due to his wide experience.
If he is happy to reveal his name I suggest you google him, and read some of his articles.
Is he by any chance the Mr Blezard I mentioned in an earlier post ?
I'm glad this thread has taken off properly, it's nice to see some informed posts concerning FF motorcycles.
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 01:54 pm |
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TheMightyGusset wrote: QuasarNZ wrote: ah but Pauls views are also valid due to his wide experience.
If he is happy to reveal his name I suggest you google him, and read some of his articles.
Is he by any chance the Mr Blezard I mentioned in an earlier post ?
I'm glad this thread has taken off properly, it's nice to see some informed posts concerning FF motorcycles.
I think it's safe to assume so, unless it's some impostor. Obviously, having spent 20 years or more glorifying FF sc**ter like, half-a-car contraptions his views on them are hardly unbiased or broad minded. I did suggest somewhere that 'City' couples could buy two BMW C1 things, bolt them together to make a SMART like car when going places together, and use them individually when going different ways. I will design a linkage for joining them and sell it to BMW, in no time the C1 will be back in production.
 <~~~FB with daft inventor 'at on his hollow nut
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jessplop84
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:09 pm |
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TheMightyGusset wrote: I'm glad this thread has taken off properly, it's nice to see some informed posts concerning FF motorcycles.
Yes, I agree. Also I am glad that I was able to hop back onto my fence, and allow reason to flow without stirring up an further animosity. As I have often said (even to scoo..... scoooo...... scoooo....... you know, owners), so long as it has the prerequisit number of wheels, it's ok really.
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:18 pm |
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piedevant wrote: ScotDuke originally wrote:
"As for the Bonneville speed bikes being feet forward designs, I don't see how this could be. They are so streamlined the rider generally lies near flat. With a feet forward design they'd be looking up at the sky. The Bonneville speed bikes I've seen in displays and stuff have had the rider lying down, but head first."
Then he added:
"An FF design for a Bonneville speed bike would require a lengthy solution to steering with a complex linkage - a headfirst design doesn't. "
OK, I'll try not to be rude. The above shows a breathtaking ignorance of Bonneville streamliners. I've just been updating myself on recent record-breakers and it confirmed what I said in the first place. ALL the outright TWO WHEEL record breakers of the last 50 years have been Feet First.
This article from October 2006 is a great story of the 3-way battle for supremacy which took place at Bonneville that year. Page 3 gives an eloquent explanation WITH PICTURES of what it's like to sit in and steer a Streamlined FF and actually echoes what I said earlier about the importance of countersteering.
When it comes to making a motorcycle go 350 mph, and keeping it upright on the salt, making a suitable steering linkage is a very minor problem in the overall scheme of things!
See here:
Okhttp://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3811&Page=3
PNB
You might be right, I bow to your superior knowledge oh great one. I note you didn't see fit to comment on the issue of sidewinds vis a vis the Genesis.
Perhaps you live somehere that isn't very windy or where there are no big trucks on the motorway?
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:18 pm by ScotDuke
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piedevant
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:48 pm |
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ScotDuke wrote:
"Some of those Genesis designs are interesting but I wonder how they'd perform in a sidewind. The buffeting that occurs when passing high-sided HGVs on the motorway can be pretty severe and I expect any enclosed FF design would bet at a disadvantage unless the designer was able to invest in some very expensive aerodynamic research to develop an effective solution."
The Genesis is absolutely fine in sidewinds, in every one of the 3 incarnations of it that I've tested, flat out down the autobahn at 100mph+ past all manner of trucks.
But as you can see, the built machine (as opposed to John Keogh's artist's impressions), is NOT fully enclosed:
http://www.bikeweb.com/node/1285
The builder, Ian Pegram, experimented with doors but decided that they were more trouble than they were worth, and did make it more of a handful in sidewinds. The Genesis gives much more weather protection than my Quasar, or a C1 for that matter.
"Perhaps you live somehere that isn't very windy or where there are no big trucks on the motorway?"
On the contrary. But I've never had any real trouble controlling any FFs in crosswinds, and that includes the fully enclosed Ecomobile and MonoTracer. The Eco leans more than a conventional bike in a crosswind, but is less deflected from its path, as was dramatically demonstrated in BMW's wind facility 20 years ago.
Arnold Wagner experimented with tail fins on Ecos about ten years ago, but not many machines were sold with them. I haven't tried one, but I gather that trained pilots, used to aircraft controls, liked them, but others weren't so keen. There's a video of the FF demo, including two finned Ecos, one driven by Arnold, at Beaulieu in 2000 here:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dogkx35Cko&feature=related
PNB
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 03:09 pm |
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| Shouldn't it be pied avant?
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 03:23 pm |
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ScotDuke wrote: Shouldn't it be pied avant?
Who cares. But I'm sure it should be Pieds avant as even the french use 's' to indicate plural, unless he has an eccentric riding style, or one leg.
Possibly 'Première pieds' would be more appropriate, Or 'Pieds en avant'
And I failed french miserably
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