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piedevant
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 06:57 pm |
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FB wrote:
"I regularly blast past burgman things in corners, ridden by folk who appear to be in full control of them."
Well, FWIW, I regularly blast past tossers on sports bikes on my Burgman!
" Riding a bike to its limit is a full body task",
on the dirt yes; on the road I beg to differ, and I offer Messrs Hailwood, Read, Duke and Surtees as my witnesses.
" Feet forward interrupts the line between front axle and shoulders thereby limiting the controlling input to the elbows, pushing and pulling on the bars so to speak".
This is pure nonsense!
"The moment the centre of gravity of the body is significantly removed from the gravitational centre line of the bike, control becomes a bit dubious".
You only have to watch MotoGP riders to know that this is nonsense, but FWIW, riding an FF is MORE likely to keep you in the centre line of the bike.
"These Alligator things have very low centres of gravity, the rider seated behind the engine has a totally different centre of gravity."
Well spotted! That's the whole point of the exercise!
" Just adjusting your seating position requires major effort with the legs all bent and forward of the bodys centre of gravity".
No it doesn't.
"I would like to know what you ride, because you obviously have feck all idea about proper bikes and how to ride them".
I have been riding everything from mopeds to HP2s to Hayabusas on road, track, dirt and desert for over 35 years.
FWIW I've worn through the footboards racing my Burgman 650 at Le Mans, I've scraped the engine casings of my Tmax racing it at Circuit Carole
and I once represented 'The Rest of the World' in an International Supermoto race on a Cagiva 500 2-stroke against the cream of French racers including Peterhansel, Pidoux et al. (Not that I was any good in that league, there just weren't many foreigners to choose from!).
I also once won 'crash of the day' for looping a TDR 250 over backwards in a TDR Cup supermoto race. I've also done the Le Touquet beach race three times and raced and trail ridden in Morocco, Algeria and Libya.
I've also done 3 training courses at the old Nurburgring and sundry advanced riding and racing courses in the UK and USA.
I don't ride sports bikes much. The last time I rode one was in Laos in 2004; it was a Yamaha R1 and I enjoyed every second of thrashing it down about ten miles of wonderfully traffic-free twisting country road. I also had a ball thrashing a ZZR1200 on some of the best roads in Thailand.
"In case you wonder about the future of them, they will never be true classics, only oddities and footnotes in the history of motorcycling".
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but I would remind you that as long ago as July 2000 the Quasar was considered enough of a "classic" to have the cover of Classic Bike devoted to it, along with an 8 page feature inside plus another page on it from Phil Read. You may be surprised to hear that the UK's most successful ever motorcycle racer (8 times world champion) Mr Read is one of the Quasar's greatest fans and still talks to this day about how hard it was to keep up with Malcolm Newell in a Quasar when he, Read, was riding a Guzzi Le Mans, way back in the late 70s when Read was still one of the fastest riders in the world.
PNB
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ClassicMCnut
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 06:58 pm |
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Looks like an up to date Invalid carriage if you ask me ......... but then, no one asked me, I'll get me coat
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piedevant
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 07:17 pm |
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Velton said:
Is effective streamlining the only real advantage to FF, then?
No, see here: http://www.bikeweb.com/node/1435
"Surely there must be a way to combine the other (alleged) advantages of FF bikes into one that complies with the streamlining regulations?"
The Gurney Alligator is probably the closest you can get to it.
It would be very interesting to pit it against conventional single cylinder racers. But Dan Gurney didn't build it to race; he built it to have fun.
"Not all racers are old stick-in-the-muds are they?"
Sadly, most of them are when it comes to new ideas. Just ask Peter Williams.
"I'm thinking of Nessie and other hub-steering endurance bikes etc."
The Elf racers were probably the most radical machines raced in GP or endurance, but that was 20 years ago. I'm bound to say they weren't, in the end, a great advert for alternative front ends. Norman Hossack had much more success with his single cylinder machine, and was finally vindicated 20 years later when BMW adopted his front end for the K1200S.
"EDIT Presumably there are no such constraints in some areas like drag racing or Bonneville speed records?"
Indeed not, which is why EVERY single outright record holder has been Feet First since the original 212mph Triumph Bonneville machine took the record off the Head First NSU 500 in 1956. I rest my case m'lud!
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Velton
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 08:20 pm |
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OK, piedevant, I must agree that many modern bikes have squidgy suspension and high C of G - that's part of why I sold the VFR and kept my Guzzi - so I can see the logic of that part in the link you posted about changing direction etc.
But surely it would be possible to construct a racer without streamlining to demonstrate these (allegedly wonderful) improvements to us sceptics?
As for the Bonneville record holders all being FF, well that's interesting to know.
My (personal) bottom line is that even the least ugly FFs I've seen look like half a Bond Bug. And there is just no way I could ever love (or even like) anything that hideous.
Chacun a son gout - as they say.
Last edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:51 pm by Velton
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Pooh
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 08:23 pm |
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| I love anything that different immaginative and good engineering, I got so bored making Chops in the 70s-early 80s they went from being different into being all the bloody same...then a mate of a mate asked me to build a weird chassis and it was so different I hung around, then I met malcolm Newell and test rode a quasar...It was so different, handled so well and for a relient engine went so well that I was smitten, I read everything that Royce Creasy wrote and he said that the inherent conservitism of the typical biker would mean they would never take off but he would build one to prove how well they went.....I drew a plan in 1988 that would work with the fuel slung beneath the frame rails and the engine (a gold wing) between my legs.....I would build one tommorow, but now with a turbo Diesel engine That is ....if I could get a hub centre set up at a reasonable cost...He hinted piedevant. and I wouldn't give a flying Fu*k what anyone thought....I would still like a pretty bike but the FF would be one of a kind and 100% individual...and isnt that what we all like to think we are
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ScotDuke
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 08:39 pm |
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Pooh wrote: I love anything that different immaginative and good engineering, I got so bored making Chops in the 70s-early 80s they went from being different into being all the bloody same...then a mate of a mate asked me to build a weird chassis and it was so different I hung around, then I met malcolm Newell and test rode a quasar...It was so different, handled so well and for a relient engine went so well that I was smitten, I read everything that Royce Creasy wrote and he said that the inherent conservitism of the typical biker would mean they would never take off but he would build one to prove how well they went.....I drew a plan in 1988 that would work with the fuel slung beneath the frame rails and the engine (a gold wing) between my legs.....I would build one tommorow, but now with a turbo Diesel engine That is ....if I could get a hub centre set up at a reasonable cost...He hinted piedevant. and I wouldn't give a flying Fu*k what anyone thought....I would still like a pretty bike but the FF would be one of a kind and 100% individual...and isnt that what we all like to think we are
The Quasar was supposed to handle really well, but its looks haven't stood the test of time. I'd be curious to see what a modern version would look like.
As for the Bonneville speed bikes being feet forward designs, I don't see how this could be. They are so streamlined the rider generally lies near flat. With a feet forward design they'd be looking up at the sky. The Bonneville speed bikes I've seen in displays and stuff have had the rider lying down, but head first.
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piedevant
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:06 pm |
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ScotDuke said:
"The Quasar was supposed to handle really well, but its looks haven't stood the test of time. I'd be curious to see what a modern version would look like."
Possibly something like this:
http://www.bikeweb.com/image/tid/18
Which is lighter than a standard Burgman and uses a lot less fuel, accelerates much faster than a Quasar and is much easier to ride.
Or possibly something more like this:
http://www.bikeweb.com/image/tid/96
Although the Norton Rotary engine would already be called a classic by some.
"As for the Bonneville speed bikes being feet forward designs, I don't see how this could be. They are so streamlined the rider generally lies near flat. With a feet forward design they'd be looking up at the sky. The Bonneville speed bikes I've seen in displays and stuff have had the rider lying down, but head first."
I don't think so, but I stand to be corrected if you can give me chapter and verse. You might just as well say "They can't have been head first because they would have been looking at the ground".
All the best known outright record holders were definitely feet first, including the Triumph, the Harley and the Vesco Yamaha.
"The world's fastest Indian" was of course head first, but although a fantastic achievement it was never an outright record holder over everything else on two wheels.
The 600+ mph 3 wheeler which held the outright land speed record for a decade or two was FF. As indeed are all the 4 wheelers, from Thrust SSC down!
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Hooli
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:14 pm |
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piedevant wrote: The 600+ mph 3 wheeler which held the outright land speed record for a decade or two was FF. As indeed are all the 4 wheelers, from Thrust SSC down!
PNB count the wheels, those are CARS. a motorbicycle has TWO wheels, thats what the 'bi' means.
now do us all a favour & bugger to spout your bulls***e elsewhere theres a good retard.
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ashley748916
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:15 pm |
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The Burgman creation is a f***ing abomination and a waste of a perfectly good super scoot. Somebdy take that f***ing blokes tools away for f***s sake.
FF motorcycles are the answer to a question nobody asked
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 09:16 pm by ashley748916
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:37 pm |
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Hooli wrote: piedevant wrote: The 600+ mph 3 wheeler which held the outright land speed record for a decade or two was FF. As indeed are all the 4 wheelers, from Thrust SSC down!
PNB count the wheels, those are CARS. a motorbicycle has TWO wheels, thats what the 'bi' means.
now do us all a favour & bugger to spout your bulls***e elsewhere theres a good retard.
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Joe 90
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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I think the quasar is fantastic, Ok it looks dated, very ‘70s and you cannot compare it against a traditional bike, because it isn’t one. It represents an idea by someone that was motivated enough to go out and build it. I have always wanted to have a go in one ever since I chased one around the North Circular in about 1982, I remember it was very quick away from the lights and didn’t hang around, I was riding a Z650. I understand that about 20 were built and then a few specials after that. I saw one for sale last year at the Copdock (Suffolk) motorcycle show. The owner said it had been standing out in the open for years and it certainly was a wreck, I think he wanted about £5,000 for it from memory. There were a couple of guys standing around looking at it stroking their chins – not sure if it sold. If there weren’t people like Malcolm Newel willing to stick their necks out and try something new where would we be, ok it didn’t catch on and was impractical for a number of reasons but I think it is an interesting piece of transport history. I admire the bloke – at least he made his mark rather than just talking about it like most of us.
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:41 pm |
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Hooli, considering your talking to an acknowledged expert of FF bikes, your in no position to call him a retard.
He is correct in what he says, the FF position has an advantage of cutting down frontal cross section area and minimising drag, which is why it is used in many speed applications regardless of the number of wheels.
The Quasar has several advantages over a standard bike, but in my experiences the inherent disadvantages make it harder to live with.
But park one down town and withing seconds people are stopping, asking about it, who designed it, what its like to ride, in some cases saying they had read about them in magazines, etc.
You dont get that sort of public interest with a standard bike....
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Velton
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 12:55 am |
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"an acknowledged expert of FF bikes"
Oh, really? And we were supposed to deduce this from what? That he knows the French for "feet forward" ? No evidence of anything much on his profile.
If piedevant is a genuine expert then he will get recognition - eventually. Accusing those who disagree of talking bo**ocks is not the usual opening gambit of most experts in my limited experience. More often used by opinionated ****wits.
Not understanding that motor-bikes have two wheels is not especially impressive either. Why mention 4 wheelers on here as evidence of FF motor- bikes?
"Classic bikers" tend to be a conservative lot and having someone stride in with that attitude (especially about such weird contraptions) is not going to bring out the "Welcome in, mate" attitude.
We all have our prejudices/ preferences etc. and getting stroppy with people is generally not the best way to convice them to think about your ideas, i.m.h.o. However, CB Forum is usually quite a tolerant place and there is room for most people who want to co-exist.
And if FF bikes bring more people over to chat about the bike then that's yet another reason for me never to even think about getting one!
Last edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:55 pm by Velton
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:05 am |
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Oh Im sure Paul will reveal himself eventually :-)
thats the problem with having a "handle" on a thread
By the way, I have a Quasar because i always wanted one, ever since I was a teeneger. Unfortunately I had to build it from scratch, but that puts me in a good position to comment on what is good and bad about the design
I also have several classic bikes and a few cars, but the Quasar, even if it represents a technological dead end (and it does) can still rightly be cosidered a classic.
I think the slant of Pauls Bollocks comment was that unless someone has ridden one (and ridden one for a fair distance) then they are not in a position to comment with any relevance.
Ive never ridden a trike, (but would like to) so I cant comment on the relevance or handling characteristics of one,
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:10 am by QuasarNZ
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jessplop84
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:09 am |
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QuasarNZ wrote:
The Quasar has several advantages over a standard bike, but in my experiences the inherent disadvantages make it harder to live with.
Nuffsed then!
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:36 am |
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well, those disadvantages are mostly present on any large motorcycle
poor steering lock, difficult to maneuver out of a small shed etc
of course im not going to bother converting you, the only way you can make a good judgement is to ride an FF
By the way, I consider the Quasar to be more classic, and more worthwhile than a BMW C1 Burgmann , scooters etc.
It may have been the grandfather of those things ( which it wasnt, the Ner A Car was) , but It deserves more than being lumped in with the scooter group
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jessplop84
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 02:57 am |
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QuasarNZ wrote: well, those disadvantages are mostly present on any large motorcycle
poor steering lock, difficult to maneuver out of a small shed etc.......
but It deserves more than being lumped in with the scooter group
True enough, and I would welcome a test ride on/in a decent FF. As I have said before, I can only guess at what they are like from trying to ride through twisties using my highway pegs. The FXR has a low CofG, and a low riding position, and whilst H-Ds are notorious for not handling, I seem to be able to scrap bits of it quite readily, and I've stoved past many a "sports rider" on some of britains best twisty bits. But with my feet up front, either I'm bottling it due to the unusual position, or it really doesn't want to go there.
I have always used my weight on the pegs as part of the "chucking about" function, and this doesn't work at all well with the highway pegs. So I am assuming that the FF machines don't rely very much on input to the pegs for their cornering.
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QuasarNZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 03:17 am |
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well for a start, almost everything you learned to ride a standard bike has to be forgotten, and new techniques learned.
My Quasar has some geometry changes compared to a standard one, which has quickened up the steering.
The first thing you notice once you overcome the terror of your fisrt experience of something so totally alien to ride, is how much countersteer you hold through a sweeping corner. With my Quasar, it feels very strange to be leaning into a fast right hander and hold in plently of left bar. If you let your motorcycle conditioning cut in, and straighten the bars to where you think they should be, then at best youll get an amusing story to tell your friends, and at worse add 10 years to your life.
The secret is to relax and think about where the bike is going, not what you are doing.
The closest analogy i can think of in comparison, is imaine riding your FXR with your feet on the highway pegs, but the bike handling like a 80s Ducati. The long wheelbase makes for a very stable platform, as does the low centre of gravity, and direction changes are suprisingly quick
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:09 am |
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QuasarNZ wrote: well for a start, almost everything you learned to ride a standard bike has to be forgotten, and new techniques learned.
My Quasar has some geometry changes compared to a standard one, which has quickened up the steering.
The first thing you notice once you overcome the terror of your fisrt experience of something so totally alien to ride, is how much countersteer you hold through a sweeping corner. With my Quasar, it feels very strange to be leaning into a fast right hander and hold in plently of left bar. If you let your motorcycle conditioning cut in, and straighten the bars to where you think they should be, then at best youll get an amusing story to tell your friends, and at worse add 10 years to your life.
The secret is to relax and think about where the bike is going, not what you are doing.
The closest analogy i can think of in comparison, is imaine riding your FXR with your feet on the highway pegs, but the bike handling like a 80s Ducati. The long wheelbase makes for a very stable platform, as does the low centre of gravity, and direction changes are suprisingly quick
I never try to think what I'm doing when riding, I read the road and simply look as far ahead through the corner to locate my desired exit position, my bike (Triumph Street Triple) is incredibly agile and goes where I want it to. I will never be converted to FF as I don't like them, and never will.
As for the BMW C1, they would be improved by being crushed and recycled. I think that the FF designers are trying to seperate bike and rider, whereas a conventional sports bike and rider are a single unit designed to work as such. If people want to have FF bikes, that is their problem but try not to convert the world to your way of thinking, innovation is a fine thing, preaching is frowned upon.
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jessplop84
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 05:44 am |
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QuasarNZ wrote: well for a start, almost everything you learned to ride a standard bike has to be forgotten, and new techniques learned.
The secret is to relax and think about where the bike is going, not what you are doing.
Riding a "standard" bike is how I enjoy riding, I don't think about what I am doing when I riding, I just ride, I look at where I'm going, and where I want to be going, and lo and behold, that's where I go. But, as I have said, I'd welcome the opportunity to test one, then I could make a truely informed comment.
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