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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 10:14 am |
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Hi, as some of you may know, my tlr200 started chucking oil out of the exhaust, well today I got time to wip the head off and I was confronted with this, To me I looks as if the oil has been blowing past the piston which would indecate piston ring problems, correct?
Not got time to take the barrel off at the moment.
Thanks.
Last edited on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 10:16 am by jamie.s
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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dudley472
Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 10:24 am |
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| there seems to be quite a lot of oil on the head gasket aound the cam chain tunnel is the head gasket leaking perhaps, sucking oil in from the cam chain gallery ?? i would have thought that if it is a ring problem it would have happened gradually, ie a bit of smoke first getting worse til you have oil comming from the exhaust, did you do a compression test before you took the head off
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 10:35 am |
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dudley472 wrote: there seems to be quite a lot of oil on the head gasket aound the cam chain tunnel is the head gasket leaking perhaps, sucking oil in from the cam chain gallery ?? i would have thought that if it is a ring problem it would have happened gradually, ie a bit of smoke first getting worse til you have oil comming from the exhaust, did you do a compression test before you took the head off
Hi , thanks for the reply.
Having look at the head gasket properly the hole isn't the same size as the bore on one side and over laps on to the piston 
This all happened just after I fitted a seccond hand barrel, piston ,valves and new valve seals.
(You can't get new barrels or valves for these)
(the old rings, barrel and valve were nackerd, infact the old valves had started to crack)
It did it with in 5 mins of starting it up after the expensive rebuild.
(£200 odd)
Didn't do a compression test before as I don't own one
My plan is to re grind the valves, fit new rings and a new head gasket and hope that sorts the problem (what else could I do ?)
Also need to check the head isn't warped.
And I might as well fit a new cam chain well I'm there as there not to expensive.
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 11:41 am |
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More pictures:
(this is the stud that the oild is pumped up)
Piston:
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 05:05 pm |
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Jamie, this is a common problem with fitting second hand stuff. Bores don't stay round as they wear and neither do rings. Once disturbed it a bit like putting a square piston back in a round bore. The worn bits are no longer lined up and oil gets past easily. The best thing to do is probably to have the barrel honed (professionally) and fit a new ring set. This will get the bore back to round and the new rings will bed in to it straightaway. If you fit new rings without a hone you will have to wait for them to wear into the bore shape before they will seal properly and they may not even then. Can you still buy genuine rings for the TLR?
Finally I take it your valve guides/ stem seals are ok?
Cheers Rick
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 06:23 pm |
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Rick Parkington wrote: Jamie, this is a common problem with fitting second hand stuff. Bores don't stay round as they wear and neither do rings. Once disturbed it a bit like putting a square piston back in a round bore. The worn bits are no longer lined up and oil gets past easily. The best thing to do is probably to have the barrel honed (professionally) and fit a new ring set. This will get the bore back to round and the new rings will bed in to it straightaway. If you fit new rings without a hone you will have to wait for them to wear into the bore shape before they will seal properly and they may not even then. Can you still buy genuine rings for the TLR?
Finally I take it your valve guides/ stem seals are ok?
Cheers Rick
I was thinking about honing the barrel any way to be honest, I can do it in college next week when I'm back.
The valve stem seals were brand new, I think it was all down to the head gasket not being the right size for some reason and it was sucking oil from the cam chain gallery as dudley says.
New rings are well over £50 so If I can get away with out them it would be better, and you can't fit an over size piston.
The piston and barrel both came off the same bike, but I can see what you mean about the possibility of the barrel not being round.
Thanks for your help.
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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L.A.B.
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 07:54 pm |
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Jamie,
According to the parts list, there ought to be three hollow dowels and an O-ring at the cylinder head to barrel joint?
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-tlr200-reflex-us_model1107/partslist/E++02.html
You haven't mentioned those? Were they fitted? If the O-ring and dowels aren't there, then that could possibly be the reason why oil is leaking into the cylinder?
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 08:08 pm |
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L.A.B. wrote: Jamie,
According to the parts list, there ought to be three hollow dowels and an O-ring at the cylinder head to barrel joint?
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-tlr200-reflex-us_model1107/partslist/E++02.html
You haven't mentioned those? Were they fitted? If the O-ring and dowels aren't there, then that could possibly be the reason why oil is leaking into the cylinder?
There is two dowels but no O ring and never has been an o ring as far as I know.
I might have an o ring the right size in a box, will have to have a look.
Thanks for pointing this out by the way.
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 01:15 pm |
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Well I rebuilt it all, new head gasket and base gasket, same piston rings though.
supposed to be riding it at a Trial tomorrow, but it's blowing clouds of white smoke again, time to the the engine back out....
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 03:25 pm |
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Done a compression test, 170 psi and stayed at that.
Has to be the valve seals then
____________________
15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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dudley472
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 05:24 pm |
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| white smoke ?? is this a liquid cooled bike ? oil smoke is normally blue and you can smell it
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 05:26 pm |
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No it's aircooled, it's oil, you can smell it.
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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Hooli
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 07:29 pm |
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if it was blowing that much smoke out before could it just be the zorst full of oily goo?
although you seem to know enough about things to reckonise that if you say it jamie.
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Fixer of the Stroppy one
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dudley472
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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| this is very true, try running it a bit
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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Ive tryed that, it's not the exhaust.
And I can't run it now, the engines in bits again, going to fit new rings, and have the head skimmed.
____________________
15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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Hooli
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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why do all that if your sure its the valves? or you sick of it now & going to do the lot so it CANT be faulty afterwards?
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Fixer of the Stroppy one
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 10:54 pm |
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Hooli wrote: why do all that if your sure its the valves? or you sick of it now & going to do the lot so it CANT be faulty afterwards?
1. Because the head is not fully flat.
2. Im f***ing pissed off with rebuilding it to say the least.
LOL
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15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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trumpetsandjampots
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 11:21 pm |
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Hi Jamie
Dont think we have chatted before. When you have had a faulty engine it really does fill the exhaust with sticky goo. Sometimes its worth giving it time to at least burn the crap out of the exhaust as hooli says.
Many years ago I bouugt a little renault van that had serious engine trouble, despite regrinding honing, milling the head and fitting new seals it still took about 30 miles to run clean, so much crap can build up it makes for you own disco effects as you go along.
you seem to have a good appreciation of how things go together and a fair glob of common sense, don't get desperate with the bike, be methodical and don't think the worst, parts do bed in just be patient with the running in routine.
sorry I sound like someones dad but I had to do this with my son when he blew his DRZ up and it was a disappointment after a lot of money spent on a rebuild.
good luck Rob
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TR6, G80S, Plunger T20,Honda VTR1000,CB350 K4
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jamie.s
Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 13th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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trumpetsandjampots wrote: Hi Jamie
Dont think we have chatted before. When you have had a faulty engine it really does fill the exhaust with sticky goo. Sometimes its worth giving it time to at least burn the crap out of the exhaust as hooli says.
Many years ago I bouugt a little renault van that had serious engine trouble, despite regrinding honing, milling the head and fitting new seals it still took about 30 miles to run clean, so much crap can build up it makes for you own disco effects as you go along.
you seem to have a good appreciation of how things go together and a fair glob of common sense, don't get desperate with the bike, be methodical and don't think the worst, parts do bed in just be patient with the running in routine.
sorry I sound like someones dad but I had to do this with my son when he blew his DRZ up and it was a disappointment after a lot of money spent on a rebuild.
good luck Rob
Sadly the spark plug was coverd in oil, indecating that the exhaust is not at fault, I ran it for a good 30 mins or so and it lost a lot of oil.
Thanks for your help though.
____________________
15 years old! Bikes: 1956 Ariel Colt TLR200 2X cb550s, D10 bantam trials, 2000 ER-500 Kwak
My bike in CBG magazine
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Hooli
Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 04:53 am |
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jamie.s wrote: Hooli wrote: why do all that if your sure its the valves? or you sick of it now & going to do the lot so it CANT be faulty afterwards?
1. Because the head is not fully flat.
2. Im f***ing pissed off with rebuilding it to say the least.
LOL
it all makes sense then, should have done it properly the first time 
*runs*
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