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keith
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 06:33 pm |
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Hi I use a 1934 Redpanther 250cc loads and have covered over 200 miles in a weekend with all my camping gear on the back, magic little bike !
Keith.
Northamptonshire
Attachment: P9030406.jpg (Downloaded 183 times)
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 08:47 pm |
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Good man Keith, looks like you still manage to keep it clean!
The Red Panther is an excellent example of a pre-war bike that will give you a lot of fun without costing a fortune. Thanks for your post.
Rick
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james guthrie w
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 09:29 pm |
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Rick Parkington wrote: A1926 Model 9 would be a very cool thing to own. Trouble is they are bloody expensive. Expect to pay upwards of seven or eight grand for a late vintage model 9...shame your granddad didn't leave it in his attic for you!
Thing is of course that like it or not, old bikes like that are investments. It is a term that has made my blood boil over the years but the flip side is that you buy it, enjoy it and when you sell it you get your money back again. Plenty of prople think nothing of spending that much on a new car, or motorbike, that is worth a quarter of that five years doen the line. The whole point is that old bikes are only expensive if you trreat them as ornaments, if youu use them as transport they are good value. The only problem is that there is a bit of owner participation required.
To be practical about it an early to mid-thirties Sunbeam would be a better bet. You can get a nice one for under £4000 - by 'nice' I mean used and well-maintained not a tart's handbag (sorry, did I say that?!) The thirties bikes are a bit easier to live with but still have a lot of charm and good performance. A Model 9 (500 OHV) from that period will bor along all day in the fifties and can do 80- ish for fun. Speed is of course relative and although these speeds may not sound much, I assure you that 80 on a pre-war bike will not disappoint a Firebald rider. Especially when he tries to slow down by dabbing his little pinkie on the brake lever.
Glad to hear you feel inspired. My catchphrase of the moment is that pre-war stuff is not 'old men's bikes' they are young men's bikes made a long time ago. If you agree that an X7 still has relevance for tearing about then the same applies to the older bikes. My Rex Acme feels the same at 70 as an X7 at 90 or an Aprilia whatever at 120, it's just easier on the licence.
Cheers Rick
great sentiment there Rick,can,t agree more with the speed analagy, 80mph into a corner with the centre stand grinding the road away and the general feeling that the machine is hinged in the middle,as was the case with my Model 77 Dommie the other day not only felt like riding an R1 at 150mph,but i left the guy following on an SV650 with a serious amount of work to do to keep up! Am attempting to save up for a pre war machine when i can and rumour has it my bike club chairman may put his Mk1 KSS up for sale after this years Banbury run...i hope i can afford it without selling any other bikesAttachment: Bristol bike show 2007 002.jpg (Downloaded 182 times)
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dudley472
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Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 09:40 pm |
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| Rick, the sunbeam is now back on the road after i borrowed a puller from the chap who runs the marston sunbeam register here in wolves, met him at the black country museum today, they have a fantastic collection of sunbeams fettled by a great bunch of lads who helped me no end, as have you, if i see you at stafford i'll buy you a pint thanks very much, Andy
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Frankfurt-Beesa
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Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 12:06 pm |
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I just spotted this, in case anybody is interested:
JAP Engined OK-Supreme ( Humphries & Dawes)
Could be worth a trip to collect
http://cgi.ebay.de/OK-Supreme-1929-JAP-Motor_W0QQitemZ330100178119QQcategoryZ9804QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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richardfridd
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Posted: Wed May 23rd, 2007 06:30 pm |
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| hi Rick,no 1920s bike at present but i have just passed on a couple of bikes and having admired your rex acme racer at brooklands last week am investigating cost and availability of the road/touring models.didnt stay all day, so hope your bike got going again!
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 11:55 am |
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Hi Richard, yes I did get the bike going. when my head stops spinning I will try to put a post up about my hectic day - there will be a feature in the magazine too.
It might be worth a little discussion of vintage pricing for the benefit of anyone interested.
250 sidevalves are a bit slow - 40 ish flat out - for practical use. SV 350's are more like it. 55mph top speed/45-50 cruising making them just that bit more usable. If that sounds slow wait till you ride one the first time, I assure you you will not be bored. Most 350 sidevalve flat tankers fall in the £2500-3500 range - this figure is not very widely affected by condition - a rough one may not be much cheaper - especially since they mostly seem to end up in the hands of dealers. My sidevalve 350 Rex Acme cost £3500 which was top price considering it was a non-runner; but it came from a dealer, it is a rare model and it's un-restored and little used. A week's fiddling had it on the road and it has run fine since.
500cc side-valves are more usable still; 60-65 top speed, cruise mid 50s but are also more expensive and heavier. Probably £3 to 4,500 for these.
In the twenties, for some reason 350 was the popular capacity for most sporty bikes - sports 500s were less common. The 500cc Ricardo Triumph, for example, was actually a touring engine despite its 4 vavle head.
Vintage OHV 350s, like my Brooklands Rex Acme, range from £4000 up and value is very much affected by year/make/model. My Rex is a 1927 Sports road bike modified to sprint spec. To buy an OHV Rex Acme flat tanker, or any similar Blackburne or sporting JAP engined look-alike (Cotton, Chater Lea, Zenith etc) will probably set you back around £7000. Slightly cheaper alternatives come from BSA and Raleigh but cost aside, the big problem is finding one. They are almost never advertised for sale. The demand so far outstrips supply that dealers have numbers to phone as soon as they are offered one. Lucky for me, one such 'number' told me that Verralls had been contacted by someone wanting to sell a Rex - and I got my name down before they had even been to view the bike.
For anyone not interested in twenties bikes this must all sound ludicrous but think of it this way. A 'unique' object that nobody wants is worth nothing; if one person wants it, it is worth little more; but if two people want it, the price is only limited by what they are prepared to pay to outbid each other.
Twenties exotica is scarce enough to fall into this category. Unfortunately rare and exotic bikes appeal to wealthy people and the rest of us either have to go without or try to scrape the cash together to compete. When I was a sprog I remember telling a Hells Angel of my acquaintance that I would love a Harley 45 but couldn't afford one. His reply was "If you really wanted one, you would find the money." I have remembered that ever since. The good news with scarce bikes is that if you come to sell, you get all your money back. It is strange that the same people that are horrified at the price of a flat tanker are often happy to spend the same on a brand new bike, on which they cover 1000 Sunday miles a year, losing money from the day they buy it. Surely the flat tanker is easily capable of the same mileage, giving the same enjoyment - if not more - but with the added bonus that it doesn't lose any value and may even end up worth more than you paid for it. Perhaps it is because you generally have to buy the old bike for hard cash. New vehicles come on credit - they don't cost thousands at all, hey, it's only £80 a month...
The best bikes to buy are the ones that are regulary used of course. Bikes in unrestored original paint that appear little used are probably best of all. I believe it is theythat will become the most sought after over the years but more importantly they tend not to be worn and have not been bodged. It is fashionable nowadays to scoff at the obsession with originality but bear in mind that the original thinking was that originality is a good indication of a bike's condition - if it has all its original features it is likely to have had a pretty easy life. In later years this yardstick of wear has been 'faked' by obtaining original bits to restore a more battered specimen. Also bear this in mind. Everyone who has ridden one of my flat tankers has been pleasantly surprised. These bikes were made to be used, if you test ride one and it is impossible to start, gutless, vibrates like a road roller or pulls violently to one side then it is a dog (no offence, Finbar). People were no more satisfied with crap in the twenties than they are today - more accepting of having to make an effort, sure; but although we view 20s bikes as primitive, in the day there was a general feeling that things had got about as good as they could. Brakes were still evolving but the core designs for carburation, ignition and engine design haven't changed that much since so don't be fobbed off with 'Oh they were all like that in the twenties, mate.' In the teens and befroe maybe but by the twenties, bikes were reasonably fast and dependable.
Remember too, it is much easier to do a load of nickel plating than to properly refurbish a vintage carburettor or engine: all that glitters is not gold.
When I was agonising over paying out for my OHV Rex a friend who understands such things said "Don't think twice, you won't regret it. You will always get the money back somehow but you may never get another chance to buy a bike like this "
I haven't made the money back yet, but I certainly haven't regretted it. It is the best thing I have ever owned.
Cheers, Rick
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 11:55 am |
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Last edited on Thu May 24th, 2007 11:58 am by Rick Parkington
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richardfridd
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 11:20 am |
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| Many thanks for the advice Rick,please let me know if your sidevalve machine is ever offered for sale.Best regards richard
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 01:01 pm |
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Ok, thanks buit don't hold your breath! I don't know quite what to do with it. I sold off a load of fifties bikes I'd had since the 80s to clear space but now have 2 Rex acme flat tankers, 2 BSA flat tankers and a 1919 Blackburne flat tanker project that was dug up in a quarry. Something will have to go eventually. The sv Rex has been a little smasher and is dead handy to use for copying all the original bits missing from the ohv bike. Logic says I only need the OHV rex but as is always the case they each have a certain something that makes them welcome to stay...
Cheers Rick
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ClassicMCnut
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 08:00 pm |
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Rick Parkington wrote: Ok, thanks buit don't hold your breath! I don't know quite what to do with it. I sold off a load of fifties bikes I'd had since the 80s to clear space but now have 2 Rex acme flat tankers, 2 BSA flat tankers and a 1919 Blackburne flat tanker project that was dug up in a quarry. Something will have to go eventually. The sv Rex has been a little smasher and is dead handy to use for copying all the original bits missing from the ohv bike. Logic says I only need the OHV rex but as is always the case they each have a certain something that makes them welcome to stay...
Cheers Rick
Thing is Rick, how many times do we decide we've GOT to sell a bike then realise too late, after it has gone that we didn't REALLY want to get rid of it after all. I sold my little James ML because as this is a hobby for me and I "survive" on a Fire Brigade oension I can't just buy bikes and keep them. 2 at a time is the most I can justify. I get a LOT of my pleasure restoring the bikes in the first place so when they are finished I show them for a season then have to sell one to pay for the next project. I really do regret selling the James but hey it's done now so nothing I can do about it. I reckon if you were to sell any of your bikes you'd regret it so as long as you can keep them if I were you I would.
Attachment: ML 7.JPG (Downloaded 111 times)
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 08:33 pm |
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Fair comment, but I got in too deep. I remember being proud at nineteen that I had nineteen old bikes - nothing flash, and I spent all my money on bikes then - you didn't find me in the boozer and strangely I seldom had girlfriends making financial demands. When I moved to Scotland fifteen years ago I should have had a big clearout but didn't I had to take my entourage up the A1 in several trips and whne I cam to eventually sell them I found that I could have got nearly twice as much for them if I had sold them down South. I had no room and realised I would have to live to about 150 to get al my restoration projects done. Once I cleared out I decided never to get so bogged down again and I have (nearly) managed to 'stay clean' since. Funnily enough the only bike I really regret selling was a 1949 KH500 (Ariel not Kawasaki) - which I flogged to Peter the Meter and he refuses to let me have back.
Maybe I've just toughened up, the ML looked a wee cutie, I once had a 125 Excelsior with a Villiers 9D motor like that - torquey little blighter.
Right, off to a rock n roll dance tonight, Angie says its sign off time! Cheers R
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davebarkshire
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 07:33 pm |
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I know what you mean about vintage flat tankers. My 25 Enfield 350 sv is a bit like a modern bike in that I can thrash it as much as I like and put it back in the garage without doing anything to it and then take it out again and do the same whenever I like. Handling is superb and believe it or not the brakes are very good!!! The box is a Sturmey so nice slick changes so long as you don't push from bottom straight to top. The oil is automatic and just needs turning on before you start. Going up hills you have no option but to sit back and wait and if there is a strong wind the speed goes down but in any other situation you can fly along at probably more than 50. Starting is easy too. This is a friendly bike and although I have little interest in later Enfields (which nearly put me off buying this one) I have to say that I'm chuffed to bits with this machine.
I liked it so much that I bought a second one but this time with the OHV motor. Unfortunately the motor was in a bad state and it's not yet back together.
Attachment: EnfieldAndPhoneBox_small.jpg (Downloaded 71 times)
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 10:28 pm |
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Sounds like a good choice David. There's a VERY shiny OHV Enfield on the Scottish show circuit. Looks like quite a quick bike - I did ask the owner, he proudly told me he's had 50 out of it. Well, yes; I think he's about 20mph short,and with all the shine it probably cuts through the wind easier too...
R
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davebarkshire
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 11:27 pm |
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I followed a friend who was riding this sv Enfield (his forst time on a flat tanker) and the speedo on the Red Hunter indicated 40 and he was just chugging along (and the RH reads about 10% low). On that basis I would say that I probably hit 60 quite easily on the flat, head tucked in. The OHV should do at least 70. The other thing that people don't realise about these old 350s is the fact that they have heavy flywheels and don't vibrate much. There is no head/cylinder joint so nothing to blow there. If the power starts to lose its edge you just need to give the valves a touch of paste once every now and then (maybe once every 5 years in my case) and they really perk up again. There is a slight blue haze from the exhaust and the oiling is worry free.
There are some photos of the model 351 (OHV)...
http://www.barkshire.co.uk/bikes/RoyalEnfield1927351.htm
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Rick Parkington
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 02:29 pm |
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Nice site, Dave. Your Enfield is exactly the same model as the one up here. I am particularly taken with your '26 Ariel. A rare bird. A pal of mine has just acquired a bargain OHV engine for his '28. He has rebuilt it and all that's holding him back is an exhaust pipe, any ideas? We're thinking of geting an Armours one and bending it about.
R
ps why does there appear to be a diminutive motorcycle on the bench in the Enfield crankcase shot?
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davebarkshire
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 03:02 pm |
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I do try to keep in touch with other owners of the 1920s RE 350s. If the owner up your way wants to get in touch please point him in my general direction.
The mini bike can be seen on thie page http://www.barkshire.co.uk/bikes/misc/ajsmodel/index.htm
The 28 Ariel parts aren't that easy to come by but one source you could check (or should that be czech) is here. http://www.vintage-replica.cz/english/engl.htm They usually visit Netley Marsh in September and their quality is known to be good. Much of the Armours stuff is an approximation and if you have any trouble with it they don't want to know. They also do make some good parts that fit perfectly first time but it's very Russion roulette. The 'Black Ariels' are good looking machines and it's worth finding the right profiled item.
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the vintagent
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 10:25 pm |
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| I use my flat-tankers regularly, and find them irresistably fun. Here is my two cent's worth; the very attribute which makes a Vintage motorcycle charming, ie light weight and simplicity, is their bugbear. Lightness comes from less metal, which means the bikes are simply much more physically delicate than later machines. Plus, they need attention to lubrication, especially where they don't lubricate themselves, ie the top end. I've made friends with talented fabricators locally who can make or repair my parts, as some items can't be found easily. The Rudge and Velo and JAP engines are well served, but Sunbeams and Blackburnes aren't, so it's ebay and autojumbles to find spares, which are sometimes as worn out as your originals. I wrote a piece on my website about having bits made for my '28 TT90 Sunbeam, which is linked below: http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2008/03/professional-help.html Attachment: rtsideinflowers.jpg (Downloaded 40 times) Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 12:28 am by the vintagent
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Fast Frank
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Posted: Tue Jun 17th, 2008 07:57 am |
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I have a 1926 BSA S26 flat tanker... Having twin levers for air and juice, manual advance and retard, 3 speed hand change, manual oil pump all coupled with hard wood block brakes and acetylene lights makes this bike suitable for a demented octopus with a death wish. I also have a 1930 BSA S30-13 sloper.. 2 twist grips (adv/ret and throttle), both back and front brakes on pedals hand change etc and a 1929 Triumph CN. I acquired these bikes from a mate who bought a job lot from S Africa, he wanted the 1950's and 60's stuff and these three were left sitting in his garage. I bought them very cheaply indeed because I thought they were fascinating as working machines. All are 500cc and all of them run well but still I haven't considered riding them in modern traffic, well, not at least until I get my pilots licence (I can't pat my head, rub my tummy and whistle Dixie at the same time). In fact I haven't even registered them for the road here in the UK.
You chaps are a lot braver or fool hardier than I am, I ride a plunger 1950 ES2 as my runabout and I modified that to cope with the rigours of modern traffic (belt drive, Bonnie twin leading shoe front brake in a later Norton front hub and a Mikuni carb).
Not to put too finer point on it, you lot make me feel a right wuzz! Perhaps I really am getting more like my Dad (belt and braces) the older I become.
Frank
Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 08:03 am by Fast Frank
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davebarkshire
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Posted: Tue Jun 17th, 2008 09:45 am |
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Frank, It sounds like you have a very nice cache of hardware sitting in your garage.
If you're worried about these machines being a bit on the alien side compared to your post war experience then don't worry. You'll soon get used to the controls and may find that you wished you'd gone vintage years ago. The old block brakes are a bit useless sometimes but I do know many people who have them working well although taking them out in the rain is probably not that wise. I have ridden a couple of slopers and have found them to be very nice machines with a nice lazy engine which makes gentle green laning a real pleasure.
If they were mine I'd want to get paperwork for them and would pick one to get on the road to start with. There are plenty of vintage nuts out here. Get yourself down to Banbury next weekend http://www.banbury-run.co.uk/2008_run.htm and have a look at the machines and talk to the riders.
If you decide that you don't want them, give them to me!
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